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GreenBean-HH-
05-28-2008, 07:13 PM
What's this about? >:(

It's a way to change attitudes... ???

That'll never happen! >:(

All people are different, some may of made a mistake and realize that it IS stupid to cheat. ???

Well, maybe... I'm still not happy with the idea! :(

It's also a way for them to publicly admit they were wrong and provide info on what they used which is verified by us. It is ultimately a way to 'clean' them. ???

I don't believe anyone will ever use it! :(

You may be right, unless we become as big as I hope we do. When people understand our message and see that there is a better way of making your way through life, we're hopeful that some will jump on board. And, if we help other AC's make it more difficult for cheaters to get away with cheating, they will be looking for ways to 'get back into the game'. ???

hmmm, i think your crazy, but tell me about it anyway.... :-\

Okay, but remember, this is just a discussion on the idea... ???

_________________________________________________
FORGIVENESS PROGRAM

For those who have cheated in the past.

Change your attitude? We will give every individual one chance to get off our -HH- Master Ban list, yes, we will give you one chance to change your ways. We would rather you be an honest participant than a cheater within the community. For those who fail, they'll have to find something else to do with their time, like 'grow up'.


1st: You will have to answer some basic questions which will give us insight into your honesty. If you fail, your name will remain on the list, and, you will not be able to reapply to this program for 2 weeks. You have 3 opportunities to answers these questions correctly. If you do not answer them correctly after the 3rd attempt you will have to wait 6 months before trying again (as it will be obvious that you still need to grow up) in which time you may start the process over again.

2nd: You will have to disclose what games you've hacked on, what hacks you've used, what your IP(s) is/are (and have been) and what primary servers you've hacked (where you play the most). We will compare this with our database to see if you are being truthful (it must be 100% accurate). If you fail this phase of the process your name will remain on our list without another opportunity in our Forgiveness Program (this is a critical phase, we will let you make additions until we are satisfied, if we think you are making an effort to come clean and admit your behavior).

3rd: If you have learned your lesson and have shown to us that you are ready to 'grow up', then we will put you on probation in which you will be able to resume playing on servers that have banned you based on our -HH- Master Ban List (not other Ban lists as we have no control over their policy or the policy of individual servers). If you break your new pledge of honest play then you will be put on our -HH- Special Master Ban List banning you forever from all games without future consideration in our Forgiveness Program (i.e., this a one time opportunity for you to stop hacking).

4th: Can you trust us to fulfill our promise... yes, we are the honest people, we are the honorable people. All we ask is for honest game play. We also wish to show other cheaters that they have a way out of their nightmare, -HH- is the way. We will do this without disclosing your name and use your example as proof that there is an alternative to cheating. When cheats start to discover that they can no longer play their favorite game, their best friend will turn out to be us. It will be a hard lesson which should of been corrected by a parent a long time ago, but such is life and we understand that people will sometimes do inconsiderate things. Hopefully we can help put you on a better track in life, one in which you don't have to hide behind 'tricks' but instead one in which you can stand firmly on your own two feet and be proud of your honestly earned accomplishments.

_________________________________________________
It's... b e a u t i f u l :'(




;D

Lil B_F
06-07-2008, 06:04 AM
That sounds great. A friend of mine was a blatant hack and he grew up when he joined a clan and he can spot a hack a mile away. I often use his brain cause no one can catch a cheat like a past cheat. He is 100% clean now and is enjoying social aspect of game, when i was starting out he talked to me about the ease of cheating and how i should work on my skills rather than take the "easy" way and cheat. I am so glad i took his advice, the game is much more fun honest than dishonest. I hope here at -HH- we can mentor people not to cheat and bring out the positive aspect of working on skills.

keep it clean is my motto
:)

GreenBean-HH-
06-07-2008, 01:05 PM
Yeah, I don't think cheaters realize what they're really missing. I'm glad that guy changed his mind, hopefullly he'll stay clean. Being part of a clan is an important ingredient in keeping someone cheat free as they know if they were caught cheating, their clan would pummel them.

Working on skills does take effort, but that's what's great about gaming... it is really just you and your decisions within an environment and, if all things are equal between the players, all you have are your skills against the enemies skills. It's taken awhile, but I've become a very good player, I know when to take a risk, when to hold back, I've got a pretty good enemy position and team position awareness, I know that if my team goes one way I'll go the other not only to protect our teams flank but also to create distraction to the enemy allowing my team to advance...

There are a lot or real tactics that make every match exciting. Staying unpredictable is a tactic that is probably the most valuable one to learn.

slaygirl
02-08-2009, 02:12 PM
We recently had a guy apply to join our clan. He was a real good player, maybe a little too good. A few of my members reported to us that this guy was cheating so my partner and I watched him closely for serveral days and thought he might be using the radar cheat.

We spoke to him about this and at first he denied it. The problem is with Radar cheaters you can never be 100% sure and you can never get proof. But we was stilled convinced something wasnt right.

A few days later we spoke to him again and he finally admitted it. He was very embarresed and said he only used this cheat because he often played with another one of our members that always has a high score and he was only using it to keep up with him. We gave him a stern talking to and explained there was never an excuse to hack!

He was very apologetic and embarresed but he promised he would never use it again and begged us to give him a chance.

At SWT we are very strict with our NO CHEATS rule and normally we would name and shame him on our website and ban him from the servers. But we took pity on this guy and we gave him a chance.

I am glad we did as he has turned out to be a genuine nice guy and a good member of our clan. Of course we will always be vigilant when his score is a bit higher than his level of play allows but sometimes it is good to give people that chance to prove that they can change :)

I fully support the Forgivness Program ;)

Sneaky
02-14-2009, 03:08 PM
We recently had a guy apply to join our clan. He was a real good player, maybe a little too good. A few of my members reported to us that this guy was cheating so my partner and I watched him closely for serveral days and thought he might be using the radar cheat.

We spoke to him about this and at first he denied it. The problem is with Radar cheaters you can never be 100% sure and you can never get proof. But we was stilled convinced something wasnt right.

A few days later we spoke to him again and he finally admitted it. He was very embarresed and said he only used this cheat because he often played with another one of our members that always has a high score and he was only using it to keep up with him. We gave him a stern talking to and explained there was never an excuse to hack!

He was very apologetic and embarresed but he promised he would never use it again and begged us to give him a chance.

At SWT we are very strict with our NO CHEATS rule and normally we would name and shame him on our website and ban him from the servers. But we took pity on this guy and we gave him a chance.

I am glad we did as he has turned out to be a genuine nice guy and a good member of our clan. Of course we will always be vigilant when his score is a bit higher than his level of play allows but sometimes it is good to give people that chance to prove that they can change :)

I fully support the Forgivness Program ;)


Ya, the only thing is, can we get the other big name banlists like PBBans, PB, AON, etc. To allow us to take their bans and if they go through the program then they are released from theirs.

If your not following, im saying make this program span all or atleast most ban lists.

The pro that the other groups dont see is that when a cheat stops cheating what does he do. Well if I dont cheat why can others? Why dont I make hacks and give them to the groups and say hey this is a hack I did this to make your ban lists stronger. Please look at it. And hey you want the source code to that hack? Here it is. The ban lists get to look into the hacks and find better ways to ban hacks.

Karvin
06-23-2009, 01:43 PM
At [MIA] we have had to remove members from our roster for PBBans issues or risk losing PB and PB Streaming on our servers. Now part of my active Security Department duties is to do PBBans checks on all recruits, if there are any violations for actual cheating that can be positively linked to an alias and/or IP then they are removed from the recruit process. Will this program help with PB's threats to shut down PBStreaming on a clan's server?

GreenBean-HH-
06-23-2009, 02:51 PM
Don't know if I posted it above, but the person has to be cheat free for a year. That is to show their commitment to a new way of life.

See the 'Coming Clean' thread here: http://www.hackhunters.com/forum/index.php?topic=1094.0

We don't have control of PBBans and I think their policy is solid. That said, I do think the ACO community should make exceptions as a reflection of what's good in life. Given our policies, the knowledge that a player can get a new CD and computer and start over, that PBBans and others know that some players are hackers but sometimes play using clean GUIDs (see topic in Private Level 1 here: http://www.hackhunters.com/forum/index.php?topic=1087.0) , that there is always room for change and accommodation.

I think the MIA policy makes sense until there's a way to weed out the past cheaters from the one's who still are willing to cheat.

Karvin
06-23-2009, 09:20 PM
It is truly sad to hear that PBBans is so rigid on this stance, understandable but sad. I have turned away many recruits because of prior POSITIVE pbbans and we have removed any clan member that has POSITIVE pbbans issues. Thanks for the info and the great links.

Karvin
06-23-2009, 09:20 PM
It is truly sad to hear that PBBans is so rigid on this stance, understandable but sad. I have turned away many recruits because of prior POSITIVE pbbans and we have removed any clan member that has POSITIVE pbbans issues. Thanks for the info and the great links.

GreenBean-HH-
06-24-2009, 10:13 AM
yeah agreed. it's sad that people don't fully understand the consequences of their actions until it's too late... cheating means ban means getting cut off from friends. Like driving while drunk, stupid selfish people do it unfortunately and in this case with very serious consequences. That reminds me of a time when I was just 6, sitting in the middle of the back seat watching to my horror as a drunk driver was driving in our lane straight towards our car, but luckily woke up long enough, to my Dad's blaring horn and flashing bright lights to get back into his own lane and miss us just barely. That day I could of died... seat belts were optional, I would of been thrown thru the windshield and ended up on the pavement. The police caught up with the drunk about a mile down the road where they found him crashed into a stop sign.

And that might be the good thing about bans, they teach consequences to people who think that what they do doesn't matter.

Sneaky
06-24-2009, 05:45 PM
Thats why I dont suggest ACOs to people. If you know that someone has hacked before but has stopped, his ban exists still. He always will. Who is really in control of your recruiting? The ACO or you? Whos actually running the clan? The ACO or you?

Both of those should be you but when you have an ACO, they control you. Not a thing you can do to keep the ACO and say that this person is ok. They will just drop you.

This is why if HH is to ever have a MBL of their own, put the user in control, not you. Have them decide which bans they want.

Sneaky
06-24-2009, 05:45 PM
Thats why I dont suggest ACOs to people. If you know that someone has hacked before but has stopped, his ban exists still. He always will. Who is really in control of your recruiting? The ACO or you? Whos actually running the clan? The ACO or you?

Both of those should be you but when you have an ACO, they control you. Not a thing you can do to keep the ACO and say that this person is ok. They will just drop you.

This is why if HH is to ever have a MBL of their own, put the user in control, not you. Have them decide which bans they want.

avguste
06-25-2009, 03:39 AM
This is an issue that has come up at each and every AC.
The general rule of thumb is all bans stick no matter what.The only exception is when a ban is appealed and the appeal is approved.

avguste
06-25-2009, 03:39 AM
This is an issue that has come up at each and every AC.
The general rule of thumb is all bans stick no matter what.The only exception is when a ban is appealed and the appeal is approved.

!AR!BlackHawk
06-25-2009, 11:05 AM
It's a system that will eventually break itself.. Reason behind this is because people switch IP's to much, so at the end lots of people will have a linked IP to a banned account.

Solution is to just save the bans for 5/10 years and after that drop it again. Which would mean that you only have the correct data.

Atm, if someone would start hacking on my old IP address, I would be linked.

!AR!BlackHawk
06-25-2009, 11:05 AM
It's a system that will eventually break itself.. Reason behind this is because people switch IP's to much, so at the end lots of people will have a linked IP to a banned account.

Solution is to just save the bans for 5/10 years and after that drop it again. Which would mean that you only have the correct data.

Atm, if someone would start hacking on my old IP address, I would be linked.

GreenBean-HH-
06-25-2009, 11:54 AM
All bans should stick no matter what... agreed. This is part of the consequence of someone cheating. HackHunters fully supports this and is active in getting servers streaming to impose this on active cheaters. But at the same time HackHunters is about helping people realize the consequences before they do something stupid, like cheat and get banned. Second, as noted in this thread, we're about acknowledging positive and/or changed attitudes. That doesn't mean the ban disappears, that is the cheaters legacy they'll have to learn to live with (a real bummer for anyone considering cheating btw), but to simply acknowledge a person who has changed.

I have no expectation that an ACO who is busy banning people and keeping up with changes actually take the time out to review individual cases to see if bans should be lifted. They might tho consider automatically lifting old bans after 5 years or so if no other linked bans have occurred with an individual. But then again after 3 to 5 years new games come out which give the person an opportunity to start over clean. As far as BlackHawk's concern about linked IP's we all know that IP's are unreliable unless the person's IP remains the same over several years. I also think that certain people are totally abusive cheaters and promoters... they should be considered a special group separated from those who might try it but realize their mistake and stop cheating.

The ultimate goal is to not have people cheat. The down side of the banning system is that it forces the banned person to continue to play on servers where hackers are running amuck. In this environment there isn't much hope that the person will all of a sudden change their attitude. That doesn't mean get rid of the ban system because we need it to make sure the individual fully understands that their behavior is unacceptable. What it means is there has to be a way to accept reformed people back into the main stream so that we can fulfill the ultimate goal.

One last thing, when someone cheats they betray the trust of those around them. I hope a cheater reads that, thinks about it, and considers what that means.... this is partly why non-cheaters get mad at those who cheat... you've betrayed them.

Karvin
06-25-2009, 12:32 PM
At [MIA] we have a VERY proactive newer member that we actually had to remove from our banlist to allow him to join the clan. He was caught in a wallglitch. Normally that is a ban that never gets removed. Since he has been with the clan he has caught more wallglitcher than any other non Security Department member.

It is important when checking linked GUID's to dig a little deeper and find matching or near matching alias's. Even then it is imperative to keep in mind that it may just be coincidence and should be monitored for a bit before being acted upon.

I personally think that a Forgiveness Program is a great idea with regards to a MBL from HackHunters. That is why I stopped by to discuss this, with all the servers that [MIA] has up and running we have our own MBL that is synched up daily and automatically. It is our Clan Roster that is checked by myself and PB.... if there are postive hits then PB threatens to shut down PB and PBStreaming on our servers.

Karvin
06-25-2009, 12:32 PM
At [MIA] we have a VERY proactive newer member that we actually had to remove from our banlist to allow him to join the clan. He was caught in a wallglitch. Normally that is a ban that never gets removed. Since he has been with the clan he has caught more wallglitcher than any other non Security Department member.

It is important when checking linked GUID's to dig a little deeper and find matching or near matching alias's. Even then it is imperative to keep in mind that it may just be coincidence and should be monitored for a bit before being acted upon.

I personally think that a Forgiveness Program is a great idea with regards to a MBL from HackHunters. That is why I stopped by to discuss this, with all the servers that [MIA] has up and running we have our own MBL that is synched up daily and automatically. It is our Clan Roster that is checked by myself and PB.... if there are postive hits then PB threatens to shut down PB and PBStreaming on our servers.

GreenBean-HH-
06-25-2009, 02:33 PM
I suppose if life were perfect then ban lists might be pro-rated, that is they might work something like this, keeping in mind that the 'record' of a ban should never be removed, just the ability to connect to streaming servers:

First ban: 3 month ban from playing on streaming servers.
Why: Because the kid tried something he thought was socially acceptable, but after enduring a 3 month ban away from the clan he grew to love wants the nightmare of not playing to go away and to be accepted again. To be honest, we all see people who get banned begging to get the ban lifted... the real punishment is not being able to play on a server you liked with people you've gotten to know. This approach wouldn't prevent clans from making the ban permanent.

2 Bans: 1 year ban from playing on streaming servers.
Why: Obviously someone who thinks that with a few tweaks, or a different hack, will be able to get away with cheating has obviously not learned a lesson at all. Hopefully with a 1 year ban from streaming servers they'll get the point.

3 Bans: 2 year ban from playing on streaming servers.
Why: This type of individual needs some serious readjustment and will probably continue to cheat... additional bans during the 2 year ban will continually extend the ban from playing on streaming servers.

4 to 9 Bans: Permanent Ban from all streaming servers for 5 years.
Why: These type of cheaters should be aggressively banned and anything that can be proven to link them to other GUIDs. These type of people will never learn as there is a flaw in their character typically learned through parents who also exhibit poor judgement. Because of the probability that they will continue to cheat their ban will probably become perpetual.

10 or more Bans: Permanent Ban from all streaming servers forever, and, permanent Ban from all non-streaming servers.
Why: Lets face it, these are the individuals who will change GUIDs, buy new games and are probably profiting off selling cheats. Through their promotions they are encouraging others to cheat which exasperates the problem. I say get aggressive and shut them off completely from the gaming world. These people are willing to profit off the misery of others.

This is just an idea... is it practical? No. Too many different types of ban lists and there will never be a consensus on how to do it and how to make it work. Also, there will be some ban lists that would refuse this notion based solely on their own attitudes towards punishment. I still look at gaming as a great way to teach valuable lessons in life... as a means to helping people move on to a better life attitude... and punishment should be in keeping with what punishment for a similar offense would be in real life, but thats only my opinion.

---
But, along with the above, we should consider acknowledging the CLEAN PLAYER, not just the cheater.

Why don't we make a list for the clean gamer? For example, I would be willing to register one GUID for all games I buy (if that's possible through cooperation with all game developers), one IP and register any changes to that IP if I buy a different router, and only a few game names. Knowing that I will never use hacks or cheats, and therefore will never be banned due to hacks or cheats, I could be acknowledged and registered as truly clean player.

Why: There is an assumption that players are clean until they are caught cheating. But what if clans could check out those who are applying to their clan, or for that matter a player stating that they are on the 'Gaming Clean List' when applying, I think this would be a great incentive to even cheaters for cleaning up their act.

Anyhoo... what we have here is those who are banned, the possibility to 'forgive' those who are banned, and perhaps a new type of list to reward clean players and give all games something to work towards. If I haven't already started a thread on the Gaming Cleam List, I should... hmmm, must be somewhere around here :D

BPR_MiK
10-22-2009, 03:27 PM
A forgivness program is great in theory but as said above no self respecting AC team will revoke a ban just because someone says they are sorry...

But...

Only a giud or key is banned and a forgiveness program can work on a personal note.... We kicked someone from our clan for cheating during a match that we played against a clan that we knew were cheating....he thought it was ok to cheat because they were...he never got busted for the cheat and the other team never complained but we kicked him from the clan anyway. but he stuck around and proved (by the fact he didn`t actually play very well :)) that it really was a one off and eventually we took him back and never said another word....

He stayed with us for years after and really had learned his lesson...he never cheated again.

now if some gets caught cheating and gets a pb ban or whatever his giud will never be unbanned....but with a forgiveness program he can at least clear his name..i have had the same player name for nearly 10 years now and would never be able to enjoy my online game as much without it...

Anyway that`s it...it`s a good idea....

BPR_MiK
10-22-2009, 03:27 PM
A forgivness program is great in theory but as said above no self respecting AC team will revoke a ban just because someone says they are sorry...

But...

Only a giud or key is banned and a forgiveness program can work on a personal note.... We kicked someone from our clan for cheating during a match that we played against a clan that we knew were cheating....he thought it was ok to cheat because they were...he never got busted for the cheat and the other team never complained but we kicked him from the clan anyway. but he stuck around and proved (by the fact he didn`t actually play very well :)) that it really was a one off and eventually we took him back and never said another word....

He stayed with us for years after and really had learned his lesson...he never cheated again.

now if some gets caught cheating and gets a pb ban or whatever his giud will never be unbanned....but with a forgiveness program he can at least clear his name..i have had the same player name for nearly 10 years now and would never be able to enjoy my online game as much without it...

Anyway that`s it...it`s a good idea....

GreenBean-HH-
10-22-2009, 08:07 PM
that's a good idea, to make it work on a personal level, not a GUID level. To have a way to acknowledge the GUID but at the same time acknowledge the player who's changed their attitude and have the two side by side for review, and then let clans figure out how they want to deal with the person, much like Sneaky was saying too.

part of the problem is trust. if someone does something in real life that betrays our trust we can watch them to make sure they don't do it again, and obviously see if they are doing it again, whereas in gaming there are way too many people and the connections to them tentative (game name, not real name) so it's much easier to just 'flush them away' since they did something to betray us. The problem is that even when hidden behind a game name there is a real person who may of learn their lesson, it's just extremely hard to know if that person can really be trusted again. And why might they have learned a lesson? Because they were caught and banned. For us to use this ban to turn a cheater into an honest gamer again would be great if possible. Currently the system is more like a broken down jail system where we lock people up and then let them back out onto the streets without any new education or attitude readjustment.... and then we lock them up again.

Better to not to cheat in the first place or face a ruined rep, lost game name, lost game, lost credibility... of course without some way back to legitimacy we have an ever growing population of cheaters to deal with.

Anyone who has been banned from a favorite server, even temporarily, knows the impact a few days can have and will do what they can to get back on their fav server... and I'm referring to clan bans, not cheating bans. Banning is a powerful tool except to the 'hardened cheater' or profit making cheater.

Sneaky
12-26-2009, 12:18 AM
I just thought this up but implementing it would be near impossible. Maybe someone can get an idea off of it.

We all know about Steam. Steam has made their own system of incorporating your games under one roof but with a price. If your caught cheating, all the games on that account are banned. If someone were to incorporate this into a ban system, they would stop many.

Another thing that you can add is Hardware bans. PunkBuster uses Hardware bans for their global bans. They take each part of your machine and they make a GUID for it. They ban that GUID and every time you use a banned piece of equipment, your still banned. So you basically have to buy a new computer. Which in the long run, gets very expensive. Im not sure if it bans ur new equipment but I wouldnt doubt it.

If someone were to incorporate both of these into a system that is used to tell who is who, that would be quite a piece of work. You can then work in a range of things. Clans could use the system as a permission system for their servers, Game stats would carry around.

It really opens up possibilities but making such a system would be a long and hard process.

Sneaky
12-26-2009, 12:18 AM
I just thought this up but implementing it would be near impossible. Maybe someone can get an idea off of it.

We all know about Steam. Steam has made their own system of incorporating your games under one roof but with a price. If your caught cheating, all the games on that account are banned. If someone were to incorporate this into a ban system, they would stop many.

Another thing that you can add is Hardware bans. PunkBuster uses Hardware bans for their global bans. They take each part of your machine and they make a GUID for it. They ban that GUID and every time you use a banned piece of equipment, your still banned. So you basically have to buy a new computer. Which in the long run, gets very expensive. Im not sure if it bans ur new equipment but I wouldnt doubt it.

If someone were to incorporate both of these into a system that is used to tell who is who, that would be quite a piece of work. You can then work in a range of things. Clans could use the system as a permission system for their servers, Game stats would carry around.

It really opens up possibilities but making such a system would be a long and hard process.

{OCS}CrushKill
12-26-2009, 10:13 PM
Long live PunkBuster and having the ability to stream PBBans!!! ;)

Granted they don't catch all cheater scum but they sure catch a hell of a lot per hour. ;D

I can at times be a forgiving person but a cheater is a cheater is a cheater!

{OCS}CrushKill
12-26-2009, 10:13 PM
Long live PunkBuster and having the ability to stream PBBans!!! ;)

Granted they don't catch all cheater scum but they sure catch a hell of a lot per hour. ;D

I can at times be a forgiving person but a cheater is a cheater is a cheater!

Sneaky
12-28-2009, 12:59 PM
Long live PunkBuster and having the ability to stream PBBans!!! ;)

Granted they don't catch all cheater scum but they sure catch a hell of a lot per hour. ;D

I can at times be a forgiving person but a cheater is a cheater is a cheater!


Not helping much...

Yes a cheater is a cheater but for those of you that dont know, Ive actually talked with several cheaters. They all are quite young. Around the ages of 12-17 from what ive seen. These are just kids. Kids make mistakes. We shouldnt punish a kid for cheating one time. They wanted to see what its like mostly and some get stuck in the I want to be as good as the best.

Dont do anything to someone else that you wouldnt do to yourself. Walk around in their shoes before judging them.



What is the mind set of most people towards a cheater. I can say right now that they think they are pathetic loosers that can only hack to be "good". Well Ive found that not to be the case. Most people start cheating for 1 of 2 things.

1) Peer Presure
2) The if they can do it, why can't I?

Sneaky
12-28-2009, 12:59 PM
Long live PunkBuster and having the ability to stream PBBans!!! ;)

Granted they don't catch all cheater scum but they sure catch a hell of a lot per hour. ;D

I can at times be a forgiving person but a cheater is a cheater is a cheater!


Not helping much...

Yes a cheater is a cheater but for those of you that dont know, Ive actually talked with several cheaters. They all are quite young. Around the ages of 12-17 from what ive seen. These are just kids. Kids make mistakes. We shouldnt punish a kid for cheating one time. They wanted to see what its like mostly and some get stuck in the I want to be as good as the best.

Dont do anything to someone else that you wouldnt do to yourself. Walk around in their shoes before judging them.



What is the mind set of most people towards a cheater. I can say right now that they think they are pathetic loosers that can only hack to be "good". Well Ive found that not to be the case. Most people start cheating for 1 of 2 things.

1) Peer Presure
2) The if they can do it, why can't I?

GreenBean-HH-
12-28-2009, 06:17 PM
that's why our voice is so important to help counter the 'cheats available' message that is out there.

even IGN has 'cheat codes' which implies that cheating is okay. we should try and focus on those type of companies first to change the basic message that cheating is not okay.

but for now, let them learn the hard way and ban them... then they have to explain to their parents why they need a second copy of the game, if they don't lie or steal, and perhaps that will offer their parents an opportunity to step up to the plate.

{OCS}CrushKill
12-28-2009, 08:01 PM
I'm sorry Sneaky but I have to disagree, that's also the reasons given for why kids start smoking cigarettes, doing or selling drugs, breaking into homes and cars, stealing from mom's purse...etc. I know these are extreme comparisons but if you look at reality cheat users can become cheat creators and that is a federal offense. When through not punishing do we become responsible.

Even a 12 year old knows that using a cheat is cheating and we all start screaming "HEY NO CHEATING" at about 4 years old or so.

I'm 45 and have never installed or used a cheat in a game in my life, I know it's wrong (against the rules) and so do they. They can give every excuse in the book but it all adds up to the same thing, they do it because they think they can get away with it.

I have never bought a game and started playing like a pro and have probably been owned by hundreds of kids that aren't cheating.

With practice and dedication come skill and cheating always comes at a price. That's a lesson all can benefit from learning.

{OCS}CrushKill
12-28-2009, 08:01 PM
I'm sorry Sneaky but I have to disagree, that's also the reasons given for why kids start smoking cigarettes, doing or selling drugs, breaking into homes and cars, stealing from mom's purse...etc. I know these are extreme comparisons but if you look at reality cheat users can become cheat creators and that is a federal offense. When through not punishing do we become responsible.

Even a 12 year old knows that using a cheat is cheating and we all start screaming "HEY NO CHEATING" at about 4 years old or so.

I'm 45 and have never installed or used a cheat in a game in my life, I know it's wrong (against the rules) and so do they. They can give every excuse in the book but it all adds up to the same thing, they do it because they think they can get away with it.

I have never bought a game and started playing like a pro and have probably been owned by hundreds of kids that aren't cheating.

With practice and dedication come skill and cheating always comes at a price. That's a lesson all can benefit from learning.

Sneaky
12-29-2009, 08:57 PM
And how many actual cheaters have you talked to. Sorry if I seem defensive, its just that I know what Im talking about. Ive study their ways to the point that the only thing I can do know is actually cheat, which I will never do. What I said is the cold hard facts.

Heres something else to back my facts up. Alot of people put in jail, they wish for a second chance. Some do, Some dont.

Sneaky
12-29-2009, 08:57 PM
And how many actual cheaters have you talked to. Sorry if I seem defensive, its just that I know what Im talking about. Ive study their ways to the point that the only thing I can do know is actually cheat, which I will never do. What I said is the cold hard facts.

Heres something else to back my facts up. Alot of people put in jail, they wish for a second chance. Some do, Some dont.

{OCS}CrushKill
12-29-2009, 11:59 PM
I personally don't make it a habit to sit and talk to cheaters other than to say if you continue to do so on our servers you will be banned.

If we get back black screenshots the are kicked after seeing a banner across their screen stating they have a black screenshot and to contact infinityward.com to find a way to correct the problem. That's the only second chance they get. If they return and still have black screenshots they are permanently banned, no questions asked.

I don't need to talk to them to know the facts. They cheat, and they will continue to do so until they are hit with a little dose of YOUR GUID HAS BEEN BANNED!

I have to say it Sneaky, no offense but you seem to have made a complete 180 since your post on Dec 25, 2009, 11:18 PM

We are all members with the same goal, to stop cheaters, right?
I know I'm not here to give them a pat on the back, or to hold their hand and tell them it's ok just please don't do it again. Please?

{OCS}CrushKill
12-29-2009, 11:59 PM
I personally don't make it a habit to sit and talk to cheaters other than to say if you continue to do so on our servers you will be banned.

If we get back black screenshots the are kicked after seeing a banner across their screen stating they have a black screenshot and to contact infinityward.com to find a way to correct the problem. That's the only second chance they get. If they return and still have black screenshots they are permanently banned, no questions asked.

I don't need to talk to them to know the facts. They cheat, and they will continue to do so until they are hit with a little dose of YOUR GUID HAS BEEN BANNED!

I have to say it Sneaky, no offense but you seem to have made a complete 180 since your post on Dec 25, 2009, 11:18 PM

We are all members with the same goal, to stop cheaters, right?
I know I'm not here to give them a pat on the back, or to hold their hand and tell them it's ok just please don't do it again. Please?

GreenBean-HH-
12-30-2009, 01:45 AM
The only real solution is to ban as there is no way to do anything else realistically... but at the same time at HH we are willing to discuss anything, and allow those ideas that might work to develop... ultimately we all want more non-cheaters playing than cheaters and there may be other ways to achieve this that can supplement current ban list technique... or maybe not, who really knows.

for the sake of the game, for the sake of gamers and for the sake of fun, honestly and all the rest no cheater should be allowed on an honest server ever.

...

but you do communicate with cheaters and you do so effectively... give them a warning, then on the second occasion ban them. Direct and to the point. They do something and they feel the ramifications. Message sent.
;)

From an admins point of view you've got it CrushKill. At HH we sometimes look at a larger picture which is where i think sneaky is coming from... how can we influence change on a larger scale. At a trench level, that is on a server as run by a clan you have to be direct with those who would cheat. Only one answer-ban.