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View Full Version : Should a clan use hacks to see if others are cheating?



Psych0
09-11-2008, 09:05 AM
Hi all, I am very curious to hear what your opinion is on the following matter...

I recently received a ticket from someone from CU (clans united). He was complaining about a clan, that they were using cheats and testing cheats. Therefore that clan was banned from the CU league. He also told me he had received abusive mails /msn messages. SO I replyed to him: NEVER TEST CHEATS... YOU WILL GET BANNED. Now I happen to know the clan which got accused, so I spoke with a CL from there.

His version:
They were playing on their own server, DMW on, and a CL was in spec. With wallhack on. (chams) But his DMW was NOT on (so no bypass) The guy I spoke to, told me that this guy sumtimes puts on a wh, and specs other players, catching possible bypassers. He also uses 2 computers: 1 laptop; for catching cheaters. 1 computer, to play .
He also told me, they were owning the clan where some CU admins are in (20-3), whilst those last ones appear to think they own the compettition, own in freeze-tag especially. But they lost, and started accusing. Now I know this particular clan would never hack, he also told me that if that was the case, he wuld've left long ago.

So, what is your opinion on the matter ? Putting chams on for catching bypassers/normal cheaters, is that appropriate ?

My opinion: Plain and simple. Yes. Although I never used chams to catch cheaters, I specced all of them, but I was not 100% sure in all cases. You don't wanna kick someone and look like a total fool if he wasn't hacking at all, would ya ?

Thanks guys, highly appreciated. (and yes long story :D)

GreenBean-HH-
09-11-2008, 11:12 AM
So, what is your opinion on the matter ? Putting chams on for catching bypassers/normal cheaters, is that appropriate ?

The Answer is NO

Never download, test, use, look at or whatever your reason any hack. The answer is always NO, NO, NO. So your first response was correct:


SO I replyed to him: NEVER TEST CHEATS... YOU WILL GET BANNED.

There are other ways to catch cheaters. As !AR! BlackHawk has shown there are ways to review 'clean' demos to see if someone is using a wall hack.

When you say your answer is 'yes, under these circumstances' you get problems like the one you are witnessing. Who can trust people who say they only use it for this purpose but not another purpose... The correct answer is NO, don't download cheats, charms, whatever for any reason... if a clan is suspected of cheating eventually they will be caught and that will be the end of it.

If I were in a clan and the Clan Leader was using hacks for the purpose stated, that could ruin my reputation... I would immediately leave the clan.

Psych0
09-11-2008, 11:41 AM
Thanks bean, I actually share the same opinion, but I started to doubt if it would've been appropriate in that circumstance .

Cheers m8 :).

GreenBean-HH-
09-11-2008, 02:03 PM
I know the circumstance where a friend or friends, with good (or bad) intentions want to try something... in this case his intentions are good but it's kind of like letting the police become corrupt in order to catch criminals... that leads to mistrust from the public and tarnishes the entire police departments reputation, in this case it will tarnish the reputations of each gamer within the clan.

The tools that are available to clan leaders are the ones supported by ACO's. That's part of why HackHunters has it's directory so that New Admins can find the info on what they should do.

I know that in MOH (Medal of Honor) some clans force screenshots and then ask the gamers to send them to the clan. I've seen this method work quite well. They could ask MFD DeadCity Bashers (listed in our Promote Your Clan) on how to do it.

Best of luck with that situation... i think you gave him/her good advice.

!AR!BlackHawk
09-11-2008, 04:56 PM
Totally agree with Greenbean, your putting your clan/community at risk if you are running these kind of software(hacks). What if the laptop would get banned by a AC Software Putting "Client Banned" in your screen. First thing i would think... This clan is cheating,,, and leave! I've seen it happen my self, with close to the same story. Point was it was running PB. Anyways, i can ofcourse understand that people are frustrated about cheats in older games, as some AC's dont support the game anymore. Its more like a "free for all" fair + unfair game then cheat free.

Still i recommend to leave this stuff at the Pro's, as they simply dont need to use the software, but just decompile it and rip the sourcecode apart so they can get it detected.

Not even mentioning the risks of Malware (Viruses, Trojans, Spyware ect.) Most of them are full of the crap.

I do recommend the so called "Demo Review tools" which sometimes enable you to watch trough walls without a real cheat by just switching into Debug/Developer mode.

Call of Duty 2 as an example had this.

Psyc
02-28-2011, 12:23 AM
I would definitely say no. I know some one who was in my clan who downloaded them to see what to look for. long story short temptation was to great and I banned him. I have found many videos online were you can watch hacks and what to look for. This way you expand you knowledge the honest way.

Victory
02-28-2011, 12:25 PM
As all otheres have said a big NO that would make you no better than them also you could also get banned for it

With you having cheats on it will not show you what they have running so best thing is to get a good anti cheat to stop it
Regards

AsicsKoki
03-01-2011, 04:12 AM
100% no. my clan allmost got thrown out of sc league(loacl balkan league)(we'r allways first) couse we let a doode in and he "scanned other players with wallhack, it was easyer for him". when pb eventualy banned him everyone who was ol seen the pb msg and started calling out. i kicked him from clan and got 50% of wins deducted from league score. questions ware raised ofc about all others cheating and blah blah blah, eventualy we met in a internet caffe and playd with a moderator and he seen how we play.


NEVER EVEN DL THESE THINGS, VERY STUPID IDEA.

Moreno
03-02-2011, 02:08 PM
My oppinion and TAW's oppinion is in our code of ethics:

No TAW Member will use, store, or test cheats*. No Member will associate with cheaters while representing TAW.

Definition of cheating:

* Cheat: any alteration of the official game code and associated files or any use of a program that is meant to alter the behavior of the game in a way that either gives an advantage to players using it or gives a disadvantage to players not using it. example: wall-hacks, speed cheats

GreenBean-HH-
03-02-2011, 02:17 PM
I think it's a really good idea for clans to put that in their rules Moreno.

Hopefully anyone that wants more info about what cheats do and how to combat them will come here to learn more and not find themselves banned for trying a cheat out in order to help catch cheaters. That would be like trying acid to know when you're looking at someone that's tripping. :o

Speaking of tripping, it's fairly easy to know when someone is cheating. ;D

Sneaky
01-03-2012, 07:50 PM
Only read the first post so don't flip out on me. Got alot to catch up on.

During the time I was gone, I started figuring out things and thru my contacts who are/were involved with hack making and using hacks. They all said the samething over and over and its began to grow on me. Before you start asking me if I hack, the answer is no, I have never used anything of the sort but thats not talking about thoughts of it.

They said, an admin that has used cheats in the past is much better at spotting hacks than an admin that hasn't.

This is actually a true statement so don't be quick to doubt it.

Why is it true? Simple, It takes one to know one.

When your a hacker, you train your mind subconciously to avoid obvious points where people can spot you from a mile away. That maybe that you turn into another direction while you are actually checking the next corner. Its a great trick to mask what your doing and seems "normal."

An admin that hasn't cheated will see this sweeping motion and just think he is abit jumpy. A hacking admin would remember this motion subconciously and it starts raising all sorts of flags in his head. Once that doubt is made, they will start noticing other things that only a hacker does.

Thats why when I was learning about hacks and such, I watch videos of them. You start noticing the patterns and you just look for them. 99% of the time, you can catch them this way.

AsicsKoki
01-04-2012, 06:05 AM
i disagree sneaky, a good admin, one that has been playing the game for a long time and is good at it, will always be able to spot a hacker. it doesent take knowledge of cheating, only of the game.

its like saying a shrink should use drugs so he can understand jukyes.

so future admins, or current ones, never ever try, or think of trying to spectate someone with cheats on(or even have cheats in pc), just watch closely if you are suspicious. Also may i remind you, if u try and do this and pb bans you it will cost you anywhere from 30-60$.

Sneaky
01-04-2012, 07:06 PM
Note before you read on: Get extra pair of underwear because major parts of ACs are about to be ripped to shreds infront of you.

Well actually it wouldn't. Over the years, PunkBuster itself has become outdated. Why? Their system for catching hacks is flawed from early on and its catching up to them big time. A PB signature is nothing more than a modified MD5. MD5 has been cracked for several years now and can't be used for nothing more than a check to make sure everything in a file is there.

A hacker can add 1 line of code that changes to a predefined number somewhere and because that line of code has changed, the entire hack signature goes out the window. I can change something from saying "HH Rules!" to "HH Rulez!" and we have a completely new hack because a literal in the code has been changed. Hackers know this too. Theres a reason why the most popular hacks takes days to sometimes weeks to show up in the PB database, by then, the hackers have released 4 new versions.

Some more interesting facts that you probably havent heard about. The methods PB uses to protect itself and allow it to talk with its servers without anyone being able to understand what its saying, has been comprimised for some time now. The ironic thing is, the guy that did it, used PB itself to decode the messages. So guess what is even possible now? They have the ability to make a mock version of PB that just keeps saying that your perfectly fine and with no cheats. In reality, your running everything under the sun.

PB would have to rewrite its entire system from scratch just to revert those problems. I have actually lost alot of faith in PB because of how comprimised their system is.

VAC isn't much better with its methods but it does do a pretty good job. I can't talk much about VAC but I've had no issues with it. Im sure though it has alot of issues just like PB.

Why? A coding friend stated an obvious fact. Every major Anti-cheat is worthless because so many people use it. How can that be? Shouldn't that mean its going to be good? No. Theres a reason why viruses alone target certain programs. The programs that are there almost always. Programs like Internet Explorer, Java, Flash, etc. Its also the reason why Windows gets viruses and other things all the time. Windows owns 70-80% of the computer market. 1 viruses can be placed in 70-80% of the world vs Mac that has like 15%. Which one will you go for as a virus creator?

PB is no different. If a game uses PB for Anti-Cheat, guess what, everyone running that game will have PB so getting rid of that can be done once and applied everywhere.


its like saying a shrink should use drugs so he can understand jukyes.

This ironically is true. If a shrink has used drugs before, he will know more about it. Its one thing to lear about it, its another to use it.

Which one are you going to believe more about how an acid trip feels? A doctor that has never used drugs and has alone read about them, or a person that actually has used acid for some time.

Personally I would trust the person more because well, he has lived it first hand. Which goes back to a about Newspapers and its sources. A First-hand source is a million times more creditable than a Second-hand source because the First-hand source lived it while the Second-hand source either read about it, heard people talk about it, etc.

Heres 3 more quotes that relate to it.

"It takes one, to know one." - This saying has been around for ages and still rings true to this day. You have to have lived the experience before you can judge others that have experienced it. Sounds kind of familiar don't you think? I remember me saying this in my last post. An admin that has used hacks has experienced it, therefore knows more about them, which translate into developing their own techniques for stopping hacks.

"A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way." - Mark Twain - Experience, outweighs knowledges. You can tell someone that if you pick a cat by its tail it will attack you, and it will hurt. Its a whole other world when the person actually does because he now knows, it REALLY does attack you and it REALLY does hurt. Which way will the person never attempt or attempt again? My bet is on the guy that got ripped to shreds by the cat wont ever try again.

"Experience enables you to recognize a mistake when you make it again." - Franklin P. Jones - If you experience it, you can recognize a mistake that is related to it. Have you ever banned someone that you really thought was wallhacking just to find out that he has played in countless leagues and in LANs and has developed skills that resemble a wallhack before? I have and I recognized my mistake. If I had actually used a wallhack, I would have seen more differences and would have been sure to not have banned the guy.

You can disagree all day long saying that hacks are the devil and that you can't learn anything from them, your actually a horrible admin. Guess what, a hacker is using our tools that we use to stop them to help improve their hacks so our tools become useless or give more false-positives. It happens millions of times a day. How do I know that? Thats because millions of viruses are created each day, each one using what has been learned for Anti-Virus Systems to make sure their virus wont be stopped on day one. Its all about what you know about your opponent. A war can never be won without knownledge and intelligence about your opponent. Theres a reason why the US Army is one of the biggest developers of inteligence gathering materials.

If the hackers use our tools to stop them, why aren't we doing the same to stop them?

AsicsKoki
01-04-2012, 07:45 PM
never read long posts, but i read this one.

knowing things about drugs, you would probbly know that acid trips make you want to have more acid trips(witch brings us to a matter GB related several posts back saying something like, how would we know if a admin is using the cheat to only spectate, dont get me wrong, but if u use hacks(drugs) u see how it feels(trippin') and u like it. You will never resist. It is made for that purpose).

PUNKBUSTER system is perfect. PB Sreenshoot, takes 10secs to take, 10 secs to review.

If pb was bad, and it isnt, but if it was, no new game would employ it(Need4Speed,BF, COD8, hawx, APBr). Developers know what they are putting money in to, and if they are it means it is working, and doing a rather good job(couse they continue to put money in it(MassEffect3 will be a pb game, and the money behind that is huge!)).

Sneaky
01-04-2012, 09:24 PM
never read long posts, but i read this one.

knowing things about drugs, you would probbly know that acid trips make you want to have more acid trips(witch brings us to a matter GB related several posts back saying something like, how would we know if a admin is using the cheat to only spectate, dont get me wrong, but if u use hacks(drugs) u see how it feels(trippin') and u like it. You will never resist. It is made for that purpose).

PUNKBUSTER system is perfect. PB Sreenshoot, takes 10secs to take, 10 secs to review.

If pb was bad, and it isnt, but if it was, no new game would employ it(Need4Speed,BF, COD8, hawx, APBr). Developers know what they are putting money in to, and if they are it means it is working, and doing a rather good job(couse they continue to put money in it(MassEffect3 will be a pb game, and the money behind that is huge!)).


Yes Punkbuster has been changing but it doesn't beat the fact that its still comprimised in multiple areas. They use different encryption keys if I remember right per game but it doesn't take years to comprimise a new game. The guy comprimised its communication with PB Servers within 2 days.

Why do you think that game developers buy into PB? It comes down to 2 simple facts, Players and Maintence. Players have whined since the creation of games about cheaters, and maintaining a working anti-cheat system is painful as hell and is costly. If you can dump off the maintence load to another company and have them deal with all the people that whine about hacks, and all they need is to get alittle info on the game before its relased, info that I might add that they can be sued if they share it, if I were a game developer, I would pay millions to stop all of those headaches. Headaches that last even after the game is out of date by a few years like COD2, They are 6 installments after it already, 6 years, and PB still gets support tickets for it. Thats 6+ years worth of headaches gone. Heres even more good news for them, you mean that they only need to get the CD key once so they can make a GUID that is unique to that person and isnt duplicated in that game? And we can use it to keep track of our keys securly? Its like Christmas for the game developers.

(Next paragraph will sound rude but its the only way I can say it to prove a point. Pointing it more at the common idiot.)

Players like you Asics (yes, your included in the group called players, like me) see that there is something taking care of the cheats even though it can be slower than dirt at times. Are you going to complain that they didn't try and stop cheats? No because there is a system that they addedto do that. Theres a reason why game developers always speak so highly about PB but when it comes to questions about them, what do they do? Go talk to PB because they manage that system. Basically sending your headaches to another company so they can work for you for years on end making things work on a product that after they are done with patches, won't even care about. Activision has basically stopped support on COD2, but who is still supporting it, 6 years later. Thats right, the company that they have to pay a small ammount of money for to make all their headaches go away forever.

Cheats being addicting? Yes, I know they are. Can your cheating addiction be solved like all the other addictions that we can stop? Yes. After awhile of cheating, you get bored of it. Its the fact that oh wow you can kill everyone on the server, but no one cares and no one will play when your around, well that makes you stop because cheating against yourself is pathetic. It will take some time but it does work. You can also fight off your addiction before it sets in.

Don't say an admin can't either because that is proven wrong with SMAC. Source Mod Anti-Cheat. An open source anti-cheat designed to be run Server Side and catches hacks for you. What is one of the things that relate to it? An Admin Wallhack that only work while the admin is in Spectate. You mean its possible in other games too? Yes, they had server side modding in COD2. Almost all the games do have server side modding of some kind because protecting a modders code so other people don't steal it has always been huge. If you want mod support, you allow server side modding. Server side modding is just a mod that isnt downloaded by the clients and the server itself can run these files.

How does this wallhack work if its server side only? You can place objects onto a specific persons HUD in Source Engine. SMAC runs on any server that Source Mod can run on which is ever Source game. TF2, HL2, Portal, Nuclear Dawn, etc. All the major series use similar engines. The COD series uses the same engine just modded more and more and called something different everytime.

Quote about IW engine from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IW_engine

The engine was first used for Call of Duty 2 in 2005 under a proprietary license of id Tech 3 created by id Software in 1999, as at this time, the engine was a heavily modified version of the Quake III engine.

So its the same engine as Quake 3 (Thats why Quake 3 vulnerabilities exisit in COD2) still just renamed because they bought a copy from id Software which was only one of a few companies that actually made an engine. There are actually very few engines that exisit to this day because no one wants to reinvent the wheel.

Don't even get me started about PB Screenshot, a child of one of the worst ideas in the history of Anti-Cheat gaming because getting around it is as simple as creating a hook on the Video Card and it just waits for the Video Card to say, "Hey Im taking a Screenshot because I was asked to." When the hack gets that, turn off all the visuals for the 1/100th of a second that it takes the screenshot and the cheat is invisible.

You can't tell the Video Card not to say that because they game, and anything that was running on the screen would crash because it freezes everything in the video card for that split second, if you don't put error prevention code to stop that, bad things can start happening.

PB then got smart and started watching the feed using a low level hook which other normal hooks cant touch because low level hooks running at a higher trust level than the others. So its like trying to tell Windows that it can't access Sys32, sorry, Windows runs at the Kernal level aka the lowest level you can go. What did hackers start doing, getting down to that level too and they hooked PB. WHen PB started to fire off the screenshot functions, the hack turned off the visuals like before. The stream all of the sudden shows nothing wrong. Which brings us today on that.

FS-Jarhead755
04-11-2012, 10:33 AM
Hey All, From an Admin point of view. It's never good to use cheats for any reasons but one... If you are the admin playing a game that was made way before anti-cheat software was put into the making of the games.. Like Black Hawk Down.. The only way to watch a players movement from that player you think is cheating. Is to use a software that was made to do that.. Which is only called a cheat software from cheaters, never the ones who play honestly because you used it to keep them (cheaters) out.. I have caught other admin in my group/clan and from other group/clans cheating in my servers.. Now that I'm not in a group at this point I don't use them. I play under a new Call sign and I've been called a cheat just because I know how to play the game..

EDIS
04-14-2012, 02:16 PM
DF BHD, SORM and some other old games i.e. Line of Sight - Vietnam. They do only depend on old wolfs who know how the game is built, how to play it, mod it, hack it. There is no anti-cheat software which could help u out.

Use of hax in order 2 hunt sum hackers? LOL I would never really thought of it myself, as an old wolf i can feel if smth is wrong - no matter if im wrong or rite the ban is inescapable and permanent - welcome to the 'oldschool' server.

I had only once, accidentally spotted the hacker who had a modded map, however I was only able 2 see him comin from outside of the map, bcoz my map was also modded n badly. Nevertheless, I already new he was cheatin, n I didnt need 2 b sure or wotever. I kicked his *** with pleasure in the way he was tryin kick mine. I did really enjoyed hacking hackers many times.

Still this has nothin 2 do with spyin 'suspicious' players. All that stuff like 'ohh we need 2 find out....just 2 b sure, but we never cheat n use hax ourselves' is blaah blaah blaah.
Play the game, learn 2 play it, get skilled n gain experience and master it. At this stage you will be yourself as the PB that feels stuff hidden deep deep in files.

Dont 4get all the games developers are tryin 2 simplify things now by removin killcams and so u ban every cheater urself. Dont w8 4 PB 2 do that 4 u lol. Complaints? Well just ask them 2 provide the video footage which proves their sacred pureness. Opps there was no killcam...hm well guys write 2 EA, IW or wotever. The best of luck, soldier!

U think ur a good player n know how 2 play the game? It doesnt mean ur just bcoz u think that way and (lol) ur opinion based on sum game stats. Thats not a score that shows wot is wot, its the way its all been done.

Face it - some people are gamers and some can only b players. No anti-cheat, no admins, unlocks or any magical forces will ever change that.